Season 1, Episode 9

Literary Agent Amy Bishop on BIPOC Untold Histories & What She’s Looking For in a Pitch

Notes from this episode:

In this last episode of Season One, I’m talking with Amy Bishop. Amy’s a literary agent at Dystel, Goderich & Bourret. She’s the second book agent I’ve had on the show this season and I’ll continue to bring agents on because I think it’s so important to hear different perspectives. Also, rememberwhile you’re going to be pitching many agents, you just need to find one!

Be sure to listen all the way through because Amy drops some serious wisdom about:

  • What agents are really doing after you’ve pitched them and are sitting on pins and needles, waiting to hear from them.
  • How she’s found some of her authors from articles, online publications that they’ve written in, and how she’s reached out to them.
  • Why she loves “untold history” AND why we need to hear from diverse perspectives and BIPOC (yes we do!)
  • What not to do when you pitch her or seriously, any other agent, please!

Amy’s agency: Dystel.com 

We talked about: The Last Story of Mina Lee

If you’re enjoying the podcast be sure to subscribe & consider leaving a 5-star rating and brief review on Apple Podcasts.

Transcription

Vanessa Soto  1:01  
In this episode, I’m talking with Rachel Allen, Rachel heads up her own copywriting agency bolt from the blue. And in this conversation, Rachel just drops multiple nuggets of wisdom, including how any idea can be a book. Even that totally random feeling Instagram post you shared last week, and she tells us how to do it. And her equally amazing paint by numbers approach she uses with authors who are self-publishing their books and this one even got me thinking that maybe even I could write a book. So be sure to listen all the way through and get all of her nuggets of wisdom. Now here is my interview with Rachel Allen. Thank you, Rachel Allen, for being on the podcast. I’m super excited to have you here today. And I’d love for you to talk a little bit about what you do. I know you’re a copywriter, you run bolt from the blue. But I’d love for you to say in your own words a little bit more about what you do and who you are.

Rachel Allen  2:18  
Oh, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Vanessa, I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for like three weeks. Oh, my god, you’re amazing. So I do run both from the blue copywriting. And we are a creative agency that helps small business owners leverage their language to create the world they want to live in. Which on a sort of more practical level, what that translates into is we write pretty much anything that goes on the internet. So everything from web copy, to email marketing, to social media, Facebook ads, to white papers, ebooks, to course content to the weirdo little descriptions that you see when you log into somebody’s membership site, all of that stuff we do. And then I also have a side business, which I kind of call it secret business because I’ve never promoted it. But it’s just sort of the business of my heart, which is called noun a verb. And that is my book, coaching slash writing business where I help thought leaders in waiting, get that big idea out in their first book.

Vanessa Soto  3:18  
Awesome. And that I think that kind of second part, your secret business is something we can talk about as well, because it’s it’s similar but different to the coaching work that I do. Okay, so one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on the show is because of an Instagram post from gosh, probably maybe three, three months ago or so. And you had you were talking about something that I thought was super interesting. And when I when you and I were chatting, you were like, Oh, I didn’t even you know, like you didn’t really think that it was I guess as interesting as I did.

But what I thought was interesting about this idea is that you said that any idea can be scaled up or down. And in terms of size of like what type of content It is like any blog could be scaled up to turn into a book, a book idea could be scaled down into lots of different kind of smaller pieces. And what I loved about that concept was a lot of times when I’m talking to, you know, aspiring authors, they’re kind of in one or the other of those ends of the spectrum, they often have either a really specific idea that they’re not sure if it’s kind of quote unquote, like big enough to be a book, or they have an idea that is so big and has so many tentacles that, you know, I might be able to see Yeah, you could break it apart in this way and make it into all these different things. But they don’t really see that they just see their kind of uber idea. So when you said there’s actually like a process To this, this kind of mad this, I thought it would be great to have you come on and talk about a little bit how you think about that, because I think it’s something that could be helpful for, you know, for that author who’s at either end of the spectrum, and how do they think about, you know, turning a small idea into something big, like a book or or vice versa. So yeah.

Rachel Allen  5:20  
I love talking about this so much, because it’s one of those things that dropped into my brain one day, and I was like, Huh, cool. And then I shared it with people. And they were like, Oh, my God.

Vanessa Soto  5:31  
It wasn’t just me, it wasn’t just me.

Rachel Allen  5:35  
This is one of the weirdly one of the most popular things I’ve ever written or talked about. And it would have never occurred to me. So I’m super happy to share it with people. And you’re totally right. And I know that you and I have talked about this as well, like, like, we’ll have clients come in, and let’s say they’ll, they’ll talk about their idea. And I feel like many of our clients come in, and they feel like whatever their idea is, it’s the wrong size, right? Even if it’s perfect. It always is like, Oh my god, it’s too big or too little or whatever. And so I think the first thing I want to clear up here is that any idea of any size can be made into a book. I mean, if we look at like Chip and Dan Heath books, they take one idea and go super, super deep into it. But then you go over to somebody like like Jonathan Fields, or Todd Herman, and they go much more broad with their books. So that’s my just sort of everybody can take a breath thing. And then I’ll talk about how to get into the actual scaling process.

Vanessa Soto  6:29  
That’s awesome. That kind of gives people the freedom to go, okay. I don’t have to turn my idea into something else. It’s more about how you think about it, and maybe a process attached to it.

Rachel Allen  6:41  
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I love how you said that. Now, I’m going to talk to my clients about it. So the process of scaling content up or down on a very like surface D type level, I look at it in terms of the the shape and the format of whatever thing we’re working with. So let’s say that we’re starting with a big, big idea, like a book, and you want to scale it down into content. And I’ll walk us all the way down the scale, and then I’ll walk us all the way back up with it. Awesome. So if you think about a book, a book breaks down into chapters, obviously, generally, and then each chapter could be roughly analogous to say, a course module. Or it could also break down further into, let’s say, each chapter breaks down into paragraphs. each paragraph could be a blog post or an email, each one of those will most likely have headings in it. And so if you look at each sort of heading section, which is usually a good indicator that that’s a sub idea, then that can break down further into a social media post. And this is where it gets really fun. If you go all the way down the scale from there, and then you’re out of social media posts. If you flip a social media post from an answer into a question, it becomes an opt in, which I think is super fun. We’d say

Vanessa Soto  7:54  
now, if you flip into social media post from an answer to a question,

Rachel Allen  8:01  
Mm hmm. So in the case of that social media post that I made about content failing, I was giving you the answer of, hey, content can be failed. And here’s how you do it. So if I flipped that into a question and said, Hey, do you have a ton of content? And you would like to do something else with it? Or do you feel like your contents too big or small? Here’s the answer. Oh, I love it. I love it.

Vanessa Soto  8:25  
I could just picture this being like a very, like, it’s very visual. I know, in your Instagram post, it was like multiple squares that you flipped through like a slideshow. But I could also see it kind of like as I was just making notes like arrows, you know, going off in different directions like, like a tree kind of like If This Then That If This Then That kind of thing.

Rachel Allen  8:50  
Exactly. And it actually draws out into a really nice triangle pretty pretty well, from like, top to bottom. Assuming that like you’re not breaking it off into, like, I’m assuming it’s all sort of like one chunk of content, right? Like we’re not breaking the book up into like, four different types of things. But if you keep it on sort of one, one round, and it makes it really nice triangle, which is visually pleasing as well.

Vanessa Soto  9:13  
Nice. Okay. So what I jotted down was that a book breaks down into chapters, chapters break down into paragraphs, and at the paragraph level paragraph can turn into a blog or an email post. And then underneath that, if you have like headings inside there, then those are like sub ideas and those become social media posts.

So then the other way around on the triangle, it starts working its way back up to the other way.

Rachel Allen  9:45  
Exactly. So like, let’s say that you’ve got a ton of social media posts, maybe you’re somebody who’s micro blogs for years, but never done anything bigger. You will find as you go through your posts, if you look at them over the course of a couple months, a couple years, whatever different things themes are going to start coming out because there’s people just tend to talk about the same things over and over and over again, even if they don’t realize it, you start looking for those commonalities of themes. And then Oh, look, poof, all of a sudden, you’ve got several social media posts that probably talk about the same thing. That could be easily a blog post. And then if you have several of those that are sort of related in the same area, Well, look, there you go. There’s a chapter or course module, and then you get a bunch of chapters. And of course, that’s the book. Oh,

Vanessa Soto  10:26  
that’s so interesting. And, you know, side note, I was just talking earlier today to someone else who’s going to be on the podcast, Meredith Arthur, she was describing the book that she just that she just published, get out of my head. And her book was organized off of themes that came out in the community that she runs, which sounds really similar. And then the themes that showed up with her community were the themes that she was generally talking about to them. And she took those themes, and those were what was organized, ultimately, into the chapters of her book, voila, there is your idea, almost an action.

Rachel Allen  11:09  
And it can be so hard though, if you’re in the middle of it. This is why I often say like, get a friend or hire somebody to help you out with it. Because when you’re in the middle of this stuff, it might feel like there’s no possible way all this stuff connects, I just share things that come out of my brain. But I promise there will be themes, and there will be commonalities that you can put together into chapters and blogs, and courses and email marketing campaigns and all for fun things.

Vanessa Soto  11:31  
So how do you kind of go about unearthing this? I think what you just said, like get a friend or someone to help you with it. Sounds key because I think often we’re so close to our ideas, and they can be hard to parse, parse apart. So do you have any suggestions for like, I don’t know getting started with it. Like where to start first? Or, or the process that you use when you help people do this, how you kind of help them wrangle it?

Rachel Allen  12:01  
Yeah. So the way I do it, it’s not it’s not for real, these grounded theory research, because that is something that is deeper than I know. But it is a qualitative study. And this is so me taking something from my master’s degree, which I don’t use and just applying it to my work now. But the way that that works, is you read a bunch of stuff, and you look for repetition. So that’s the very first thing to look for, it’ll flag you’ll you’ll start seeing things repeat over and over and over again. And you look for repetition. You also look for outliers. If there’s something that you only talk about once and then never ever again, then it’s probably either doesn’t belong there, or it’s really, really important and you haven’t gotten to it yet. So repetition, outliers, and then things that just really light you up. Like if you read over something and you’re like, Oh, that’s good, then definitely pay attention to that, because it probably is really good. And you will likely find sub ideas to sort of circle around them.

Vanessa Soto  12:58  
So interesting. So do you actually just like go through I I’m starting to picture like my own stuff. So you would kind of go through all your blog posts, go through your Instagram, wherever you’re putting your content out and look sort through it and just generally go through this, this process and like, note them down or highlight them stuff like that.

Rachel Allen  13:18  
Yeah, and I actually recommend, if you can, it’s nice to have it printed out, which I know sounds like a weird pain mask thing. But it’s something about being able to move the sheets of paper around into different piles I find is very helpful for me. And I do that with client work a lot. If you can, then keep some sort of like Excel sheet, Google seat notion, board Trello board something to where you can visually start seeing these columns fill up as you make your different categories. And as you start seeing repetition, because it’s too much to keep in your head. It’s too much keeping anybody said all these different themes and everything. And that’s where you’ll start to feel lost in the weeds. And like you’ll you’ll know that you talked about something before but can’t remember where it was and then wait wasn’t really a thing. Yeah, I guess I’m saying is organization is key.

Vanessa Soto  14:05  
Yeah, I’m almost picturing like, whether or not this would be practical. It’s like the classic use of like, post it notes on a wall, like, weather. But then this would be specific ideas that maybe come from different places. But you could capture the themes, at least in some in some way visually.

Yeah, maybe that’s mean, I would go for like the post it notes on the wall, but somebody else would use like the Trello board or some more like digital version of it. Okay. So that’s how you would, that’s how you would dig through to find what you have. And then to kind of organize them. So let’s say you’re somebody. Okay, so we were talking earlier about there’s kind of two ends of the spectrum. There’s like the person that has a whole bunch of ideas, and a desire, like an innate desire to figure out. How do I pull all these together into an Uber idea. Like, they want to write a book. And they feel like instead, they just have a bunch of random ideas. And that’s not you know, that’s probably not the case. But that’s how they feel. And then the other end is the person that has like, the big idea. So if you’re the person that has all the different ideas, and you have a goal of I know, I want to write a book, it’s just calling to me. This would be the process that you would kind of take them through, like, how do you then recognize the top of the idea like the maybe that’s the one that lights you up? Or maybe it’s the one that you see repeated the most? I’m just kind of thinking it through in terms of like, how do you get to that? Here’s the possible book idea out of all the different different pieces that make it up? Is there anything, anything that that that like kind of comes to mind for you?

Rachel Allen  15:52  
Well, it could be exactly what you said, it could be the thing where you’re like, Oh, yeah, that really lights me up. It could be the thing that you talk about just all the time, especially if you find yourself always starting posts, for instance, talking about it, and it kind of it’s like foundational concepts that everybody else needs to know, the neck could very well be it. Other things to look for. Include. If there’s an idea. Oh, I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Vanessa Soto  16:20  
Oh, you’re breaking up a little bit. Rachel, I might have lost you for a sec.

Unknown Speaker  16:24  
Sorry. No, it’s okay.

Vanessa Soto  16:26  
It is okay. You sound better now.

Rachel Allen  16:30  
Excellent. I will stand still I was pacing around the house.

Vanessa Soto  16:34  
You’re getting excited.

Yeah, you were talking about you were talking about how we were just starting to talk about how you could get up to that like identifying the the Uber idea if what you’re going for was what’s what’s the big book idea?

Rachel Allen  16:49  
Right. And so it’s exactly what you said, repetition, if there’s an idea that really lights you up. Another thing is, if there’s some sort of concepts that everything else depends on to make sense. So like, if there’s an idea that you have to understand first, before you can understand all the other stuff you’re talking about, that that’s often the unifying thread. And the other thing is, if it’s so I call those like Keystone ideas. And then it can literally be just a like a foundational concepts like if you’re writing, for instance, Susan, Susan Piper’s, the four truths of love that’s founded, or it’s pulled heavily from Buddhist philosophy. And so she obviously needs to go a little bit into that first, before anything else will make sense. So you can start seeing how these kind of Keystone concepts come out by thinking about what the readers need to know, just to be able to participate in that conversation.

Vanessa Soto  17:40  
That’s interesting. You know, what that makes me think of is, maybe you encounter this with with your people, too. But often the ideas that people kind of throw aside as being they kind of think everyone already knows that. Like that, to me sounds a little bit like this foundational idea, that thing that you actually that actually people don’t know. And it’s actually your special sauce that you know, really well. And so that’s one thing that’s kind of leaping out to me, that I already encountered with people is they’re talking about something like oh, well, you know, that’s not the idea. And you’re like, wait, actually, can you go back to that one? I think that actually was really.

So maybe that’s, maybe that’s like a thing that people do is they kind of almost like don’t recognize

Rachel Allen  18:29  
the ad. It’s so hard when you’re sort of in in this I mean, like looking at the thing you’re interviewing me about today, I didn’t think this would be a thing until I posted I was just like, oh, no Instagram content, whatever. And then everybody wants to know about it. So this is another reason why it’s so important to have someone like you or me involved, where we can actually listen and say like, now wait a second, I know that this makes sense to you. But the rest of the world doesn’t live in your head. So let’s talk about this big concept that we need to understand first.

Vanessa Soto  18:56  
Right, right. And probably I think you’re right, like you and I do that with people. And we might not necessarily even tell them that that’s what we’re doing that we’re we’re identifying this kind of unifying thread these foundational ideas. And then maybe you still need to find the right language to really like, say it in in an eloquent way that really sums up the idea. But it’s usually the it’s often that thing that’s kind of tossed aside. So some of the ideas that I’m hearing could be the thing to look out for. There’s the repetition, there’s there, it really lights you up, and there’s the opposite of it really lights you up, you kind of throw it away. And maybe then you throw it away because you think it’s something that everybody else already knows and they and they might in fact not. One of the things that I sometimes talk to clients about is if their idea feels really big. I asked them to think about it if it was like if they had to make it into a TED talk. Like if you had only been minutes. What part of this idea would you talk about? And that I that often leads to? Oh, well, I know exactly the ones that I would talk about if I had to pick one, which is another one of these, I think kind of fits in here too, then, you know, you’re like, Well, I have all these ideas. But if I really had to pick one, it’d be this one. But five minutes ago, they were like, I have no idea which one I would pick. But if they had to choose which one

would it be? And what do you think about that? Do you think that’s kind of something to play around with to the idea that you kind of feel like it’s your favorite is the most important to you?

Rachel Allen  20:40  
Yeah, absolutely. And one, the magical phrase that I found unlocks that, and this is if you’re writing or sort of talking to yourself, if you if you’ve gotten down to that bog of like, I don’t know, all the ideas feel really important. Just kind of take a breath, and then write this sentence. And whatever comes out on the end of it is usually very interesting. You say what I really want to say here is, and then something will come out. And usually it’s super, super interesting. And that’s that I learned that from Deb Cooperman, who does write your way free, and she does all sorts of like writing tips and stuff like that. And I was like that I wanted to all the people.

Vanessa Soto  21:15  
Yeah, no, that’s awesome. So what I really want to say is, so if you’re kind of floundering around and are circling around something, I think I’ll definitely use that with people too. Because sometimes you’ll hear a person even say to you, well, I, well, there’s this and there’s that there’s all these things. And then I could say to them, well, just ask yourself, What do I really want to say? And then they could kind of answer that. Yeah. Oh, that’s nice. So that could also be potentially, like, the core idea is, what I really want to say is this, and then everything else possibly just starts to naturally flow right out of there.

Rachel Allen  21:58  
Mm hmm. And especially if you find that as you say that and you get really embarrassed about or like, like, about what comes out? Or if it feels scary or big that assignments really, really good.

Yeah.

Vanessa Soto  22:09  
Right? Because it’s the thing that you’ve kind of been skirting around, and maybe watering down because it feels really important to you, or it feels really vulnerable. And that kind of helps it get out. Ooh, that’s a good one. Okay, so what I really want to say is, okay, so, Rachel, I know that you work your your secret business, I want to talk a little bit about that. Because I think what you do is you like, let’s say you had, I think you would have a client who maybe has a what I really want to say is book idea. And I think you helped them, like organize these ideas into the book itself, like help them write their book. Is that what your secret business is? Tell me more about that. How does that work?

Rachel Allen  23:02  
Yeah, so most people come to me, and they have a really big idea that they want to get out to the world. And I can be like, weirdly specific with the data on this because I track everything in my business, but they wait an average of seven years, before actually taking the action on that. And I’m like, Oh, so long,

Vanessa Soto  23:21  
seven years, and I was just, this is funny. I feel like this is like, meant to be conversation. I was just today when I was talking to Meredith who’s also going to be on the show. We were talking about her book idea that took three and a half years, which felt really long for her. And then she got to this point where it just one day literally a thing happened. And she was like, I’m ready to do it. It just like what we were toying around with, like, is that common? So I’m wondering, like, whether it’s seven years or however many years is that there’s a point where people get to it, and they’re like, I’ve done thinking about it? Is that kinda, huh?

Rachel Allen  24:00  
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, maybe this is just what my clients but usually, when they come to me, they’re in, like, a lot of pain about this, because they’ll say, you know, like, this is so important to me, and I can’t talk about it, and I can’t say it and it’s never going to happen. And I’m like, first of all, it’s going to happen. We’re okay. And carrying that inside you for so long when you’ve got this idea that you know, is going to change the world or you know, is going to make this world you want to live in or change somebody’s life or if you just think it’s really cool. And having nobody to hear that that’s profoundly lonely. Oh, yeah. It’s like kind of Right.

Vanessa Soto  24:39  
Yeah. So they come to you after feeling this intense pain and, and, and the thing they want to do is turn it into a piece of writing.

Rachel Allen  24:50  
Yeah, they want to get this idea out into the world in a platform that they know is going to be solid and lasting. So internet writing is lovely and very light. A lot longer lasting than it was. But a book is always going to beat out a medium post, you’re not going to find a medium post in the library. So they come to Oh, I’m sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, no, go ahead. So they, so they come to me, and they have this idea that they want to get out. And usually they will have some writing that they’ve done on it before because they’ve tried to do it on their own. And writing a book on your own is really hard, even if you do it professionally. And so they’ll have some sort of writing or they’ll be like, I know, it’s about this. And I’ve done a ton of blogging about this kind of adjacent topic, or like, here’s my 65th outline that I’ve written, what do you think about this one, and I’ll take that, and we will establish what I call it, book compass. And it’s called a compass, because it directs us throughout the project. But it’s based on a methodology that I actually developed for doing copywriting. Because as a sort of long story short, when I was about five years into my business, I got really curious as to what made writing effective. And I knew I could do it. And I knew I could spot it. But I didn’t know like the underlying methodology of it. So as anyone would do, I did a massive study of all of the clients I’ve had up until that point. What came out of that, which involves many post it notes all over the walls, by the way, I was living in London in this tiny, tiny little flat. So it was literally wallpapered with post it notes. But what came out of it was, writing always works when it’s done in the same for iterative and consecutive steps. And those steps are clarity, you clear on the message, you inflect that message for the audience, you have a strategy as to why you’re doing this writing to begin with. And then you execute on that well. And so we start out creating the book compass. And that sort of, that’s the foundation that will build the entire book on, then we do an outline. And then from there, it’s basically like an interview, we’ll work through the outline on a call. And I’ll take one section of it, and I’ll interview them about it. And they’ll talk to me and it kind of just feels like you and I chatting now you know, it’s very casual. And then I go away and create what I call a paint by numbers outline. And so it’s literally like, Vanessa, give me 200 words on this topic. Remember, you said bullet point, ABC. Now transition into 500 words of this topic, a couple of sub topics we talked about here were XYZ, and then I give that back to them. And it just gives them the the container to sort of pour all of that great writing into,

Vanessa Soto  27:25  
Oh, that’s so interesting. Like I’m picturing, it’s almost like, well, you called it paint by numbers. And it made me think of like, a backwards outline, like fill in Yeah, he says, and, and you listen to them, and then say, this is what I heard. And then they write all those individual pieces. Oh, I love that. I love that. And so these are folks that are, at least I know, one client that recently published a book who had worked with you had self published or they primarily self publishing? Or do you work with people who are doing other forms of publishing, or maybe they’re just self publishing, I don’t know.

Rachel Allen  28:06  
Mostly self publishing, or working with small, independent publishers. And then I’ve had a couple who have worked with the bigger publishers, but that sort of more, just not really fanbox I like to play and so then I refer them to you, and it’s great.

Vanessa Soto  28:18  
It works out just Well, I, I think like sometimes you as we know, there’s just like, for whatever reason, self publishing is the right fit other reasons, writing a proposal is the right fit, and you want to pitch agents. But what I love about what you’re doing is, you’re not just kind of coaching them through the process, you’re literally giving them the roadmap so they can write their book, like I often use, like roadmap and blueprint language like that. But you’re doing a lot of what I do with the book proposal, but in the book itself, like really helping guide them right into into the writing, then it makes it a lot more manageable for them. Like I’m imagining they’re responding well to this, but like, you tell me how this how does this work work for people? Do they love it?

Rachel Allen  29:08  
Usually, yes, the only one that I’ve had that it wasn’t a fit board, we had to modify, which actually, which worked out great to was this person is very dyslexic and sitting down, they thought they would be okay having the structure, but still, it just wasn’t like words we’re not getting from brain to hand. And so they actually told the book to me via audio, and we had those transcribed and put into the same thing. But generally, it works very well it because it takes away sort of what, gosh, I can’t remember who said the quote, but the tyranny of the blank page, right? You don’t have to know how to structure your ideas. You don’t have to think like, Oh, god, what do I write now? You know what’s right now because I told you and you know exactly how long it’s supposed to be. And you have somebody else looking at it. So if it is terrible, which it’s never terrible, but if it is terrible, we can fix it.

Vanessa Soto  29:52  
Right? You’re there for both parts. But what I what I really love about it is that initial Well, there’s two things that initial list In the work that you do, right, where you’re having that conversation, and you’re hearing between the lines, and you’re hearing the most important things, it sounds a lot like what you were describing before the, you know, the content scaling, it’s identifying and, and, and kind of highlighting are spotlighting the things that maybe the individual doesn’t see themselves. And then the other thing I love about it is you’re then you’re giving them this structure, this kind of, by numbers, fill in the blanks kind of thing. Ooh, if I ever decide I want to write a book, I think that your methodology is I might be reaching out to you not that I want to write a book right now. But I want to know, don’t ever think of myself as like, even though I help people package their ideas for writing their book. Maybe it’s just a weird thing. But I’m just like, I don’t really think like, I want to write a book. But I don’t think I could really do it. Just the thing that you what is a cobbler? The cobblers children have no shoes or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

But but I think it’s that it’s that meeting, second person to help you be able to either see your structure or find those core ideas. And that sounds like it makes a huge difference and how you help people do that. Oh, I love that so much. Now that I understand even a little bit more what you do, that’s really helpful for me to be able to recognize, like, if, if I talk to somebody and what they actually need is someone like you now I know even more how, how awesome that experience wouldn’t be of support. Okay, so I’m thinking that I would love to be able to share with people a little bit more on like a visualization, or you probably have a blog post or something on your scaling up and down idea. I know, I saw the Instagram post. So I can include that in the show notes to remind people about how they can, how they can kind of attack this idea of identifying what their kind of foundational ideas might be by sorting through all that content they already have. So maybe you can help me identify something great that I can include in the show notes for that.

Rachel Allen  32:21  
I was just thinking I would be happy to make sort of a cheat sheet about that. Sort of key points that we’ve talked about in the visual. Yeah,

Vanessa Soto  32:28  
yeah. Let’s see, that would be cool. Okay, because I feel like we were talking about like the triangle, and I have my drawing of all the arrows, but Okay, so let’s, let’s plan that will include some sort of visualization for folks to help them, help them do that. And I would love to hear back from people to see how that goes for you. And then if somebody was thinking they might want to, they have one of those ideas, and they are thinking about self publishing, and they might be interested in the kind of writing support that you offer. I know you’re pretty booked up this year. But how could somebody reach out to connect with you about that?

Rachel Allen  33:03  
Your website, I yeah, website works. I am all over the internet. So they can go to my website, which is bolt from the blue copywriting.com. You can also email me at Rachel at bolt from the blue copywriting Comm. I’m also on Instagram at bolt from the blue copywriting, and on Facebook, as bolt from the blue copywriting, any of those, you’ll reach me.

Vanessa Soto  33:22  
Excellent. And I’ll include all those links in the show notes. Okay, so that tells us where people can find you on the internet. And then I want to kind of close this out with a couple of questions. I’m asking everybody who comes on the show, and I shared this with you earlier. So one of them, is there a common myth that you’d like to debunk about writing, probably writing for you, but writing or maybe publishing or self publishing something that people you know, say, but you don’t think it’s true.

Rachel Allen  33:56  
I would love to debunk the myth that writing is something like that you either can do or can’t do. Like it’s some sort of magical skill that’s just dropped on some people and not dropped on others that it’s just not true. It’s a skill, some people are going to find it easier naturally, like anything else. But anybody can learn it. Anybody can be better at writing and communicating. And anybody can write a book if they want to, if you’re if the size of your thing is just blog posts or podcasts or whatever, that’s great, too. But I think the like Miss part two of this is no matter whether writing is your natural medium or not. Like I mentioned, I have loads of clients who are neurotypical in some way or dyslexic, or they just like words are really really hard for them in the sit down and type it out type form. That is not the only way to write. Anybody can write no matter what their natural style of communication is.

Vanessa Soto  34:48  
Oh, I love that all everything that you just said. Okay, that’s awesome. So the next question is, how would the kind of parent generation age people in your life Describe what you do for a living.

Rachel Allen  35:04  
So I actually have a lovely answer for this. Because the the parent generation people in my life are largely convinced that I’m a spy. And the reason for that being I have what is to them and unexplicable source of income because I, you know, air quotes work for the internet, money internet. And because I’ve lived all around the world, I was living in London, in DC, and Hong Kong and all these places. And so they’ll be like, oh, How’s work going? I mean, you know, if you can talk about it, like, marketing agency, oh, my God, I

Vanessa Soto  35:39  
love it. International spy that you can add that to your to your bio. Okay. I don’t know if anyone can read that one. All right, as much as you love writing, helping everybody write all of their copy and their books. If you if money, were no object, might you be doing something else? What

Rachel Allen  36:00  
would you be doing all day? Probably largely the same thing, but more focused on my own writing, which is really scary to even say that out loud and you are recorded. No, I know, as I as I told you, even up in our earlier conversation, I’m actually in the process of drafting a memoir, which is like so absolutely terrifying. But that’s what I was focused on. Or I would go for my sort of, I wouldn’t even call it a backup career because I actually just enjoy the hell out of it. I really enjoy attending bar. I’ve done that on and off. And it’s just a blast. I enjoy it. So that’s what I would be doing.

Vanessa Soto  36:39  
That’s awesome. Or maybe you could like start your you could start your own bar and just run it.

Rachel Allen  36:45  
Literary bar. Yes. Oh, well, it’s like,

Vanessa Soto  36:48  
you know, in London, there’s all those kind of cool literary type pubs? Oh, that sounds excellent. That sounds awesome. Well, thank you for sharing those answers to my unconventional questions. I appreciate it. And thanks for Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. And I look forward to figuring out how to visualize your scaling content up and down idea. And you can shoot that over to me, and we’ll share it with everybody in the show notes. So thank you, Rachel. It’s been great talking to you.

Rachel Allen  37:21  
Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

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